Which things MUST be part of the govt

General
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It’ll be fun to keep updating our running lists of which things we think must be govt run, and also which can be put on the individual to do for himself, and a 3rd category of something that can be accomplished via business/charity/crowdfunding.

My (very incomplete) list so far is:
GOVT:
-Police/Civil defense force (FullTime, PartTime, or Volunteer paid via tax money in my model, and/or 6 mo/1 yr conscription)
-Roads/bridges/storm water (paid for construction, FT, PT, or V for maintenance)
-Parks (paid for construction, FT, PT, or V for maintenance)
-Trash service (until there is a solution to vaporize trash onsite)

PERSONAL
-Electricity (solar/battery/wind)
-Septic/other waste methods (all methods of dispersing human waste into the property as nature does)
-Grey water dispersal (probably same sort of septic system)
-Fresh water (rain water collection, or river stream purification)

CHARITY/BUSINESS
-Hospital/Ambulance (free market and strict non-monopoly laws so that different forms of medicine have a chance) (also run as zero-profit businesses, as in the CEO of business makes nothing, but the workers are FT, PT, or V)

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The roads/bridges/storm water can be done privately and in some places is I don’t know if you are in a state that has toll roads but historically turnpikes in the US were privately funded up until the early 1900’s.
Parks are private in some areas too Central Park in NYC? Thats privately operated but owned in trust by NYC.
Trash in many areas here in the US are also privately ran too!

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Roads - I am wondering about the turnpike example you gave. Were these just bare-bones dirt roads for horse drawn carriages? Grok says the Good Roads Movement initiated by bicyclists in the 1870s led to the federally funded highway system in 1926. That makes it seem like the private road system wasn’t good enough for motorized transport.

I lived in TX for many years and I despise the way toll roads are done there. The govt basically grants a monopoly to a company that wants to build a toll road. The residents do their best to avoid the high priced toll roads ($20 for a few freeway exits). I heard the toll road near me was bid for and built by a company in Spain. If libertarians are afraid of giving control over their lives to the govt, I don’t see anything better about giving even greater control of your life to a private corp.

There have been some legislative efforts in TX to transition the toll roads to being free once they are paid off, but nothing has passed State Congress yet.

I did remember a bridge that was a toll road in my youth and then later had no toll. Here is some of the history of the Coronado Bay Bridge:

Bond Financing: The bridge was financed through a $47.6 million bond issue by the California Toll Bridge Authority, controlled by then-Governor Pat Brown. The bonds were to be repaid through toll revenues. Initial cost estimates ranged from $30 million to $40 million, but Navy requirements and other factors increased the final cost to $46 million, sparking controversy.

Toll Revenue: The bridge operated as a toll bridge to repay the bond debt. The toll was initially set at $7 per vehicle, a significant amount at the time. By the first month of operation, 740,000 vehicles crossed, indicating high usage and revenue potential.study.comwebuildvalue.com

Traffic Impact: The bridge saw over 2 million cars in its first three months, far exceeding the 3.4 million annual vehicle crossings of the ferries it replaced. This high traffic volume supported toll revenue collection.issuu.com

Toll Elimination: The $47.6 million bond debt was fully repaid by 2002, and the toll was eliminated, making the bridge free for all vehicles. This marked the end of its toll-based financial model.

Roads and bridges are a complex issue and probably warrant a thread of their own.

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Parks
Central Park was created by the city govt in 1873. The Central Park Conservancy (private) only started maintaining the park at some point between 1980-1998. I would argue the maintenance only went private when Central Park had already become a universally famous symbol of New York and America. It’s much easier to get and maintain financing for a famous and beloved landmark.

Trash
Yes you are correct, I guess technically most trash service in America is private, but I would characterize it more like a public-private partnership. Is it a govt sanctioned monopoly? Are competitors allowed? I have tons of questions here.

I do want to research more into trash and private parks, but I’m all researched out right now.

Martin make up your list of govt/personal/charity things!

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I will give an example Springfield, Missouri a city with over 180,000 population it has a competitive model all trash companies are allowed provided they pay the “franchise/permit” bs no monopoly bs and rates are very competitive.

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Central Park like the rest of NYC was a trash heap in the 70’s watch this overview on parks!

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I still have questions about trash: who owns the land that is the landfill? Govt? Are the landfill workers usually govt even tho trash pickup is private? I will concede the trash issue if we can pick apart an entire efficient trash system and there is zero govt involvement.

However this brings up the issue of pollution, and my first instinct is to put pollution regulation as part of the duties of the police/civil defense force. Private business has historically proven unworthy of policing itself for pollution.

Your Bryant Park example is the same as Central Park. It was created in 1847 but management was only privatized in 1980. So how would a private company start Bryant Park from scratch today; it would have to pay $50 million for the land and improvements and start business massively in debt.

Now LL is a special case, as once LL has full possession of the land, no one will have to pay for it, and will become owned by the LL govt. So theoretically, they could designate a parcel of land as a park and offer management to a private company for free. The company could run the park within limits set by the govt and make a profit for themselves. If they step outside the limits the govt set, the govt reclaims the land and looks for a new management company. I suppose this is exactly how Bryant Park operates.

But what about a different new country situation where all the land had to be purchased up front?

What about park areas that don’t get as much foot traffic and therefore sell less. Manhattan is one of the most foot trafficked in the whole US; there has to be some examples elsewhere.

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Using Springfield still the landfill is owned by govt but operated by a private company. I don’t know the exact details but I have never heard of pollution from it maybe that’s because the state and federal governments monitor for pollution and this nationwide Murf.

https://maramecspringpark.com/

On the parks issue I will give you a rural state park type example that is private. Maramec Spring Park in St James, MO it is owned and operated by the James Foundation a private non profit corporation since 1939! And it was established upon the death of Lucy Worth James who had owned the land since her father’s passing it is for all intents and purposes a state park and historic site. On the park grounds is the oldest profitable iron works company west of the Mississippi River granted it is the ruins but it is still very historically relevant they also have the maramec spring the headwaters of the meramec river (yea the rivers name is spelled different ways) which has one of the best trout fishing areas in Missouri. I say all of this because this park has never been pwned by the government and is in a rural area I hope this helps you out!

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Here is what Grok says about Landfill ownership and management, though it doesn’t seem very confident in its answer:

As of recent data, approximately 64% of landfills in the United States are owned by local governments, with about 33% owned by private companies and the remaining 3% operated as public-private partnerships. Specifically, out of 2,622 landfills, 1,669 are owned by local governments.bigrentz.com

Regarding the percentage of locally government-owned landfills that are run by private companies, precise figures are less clear. However, some sources indicate a trend toward privatization in operations, with examples like Wake County, North Carolina, where the county owns the landfill but contracts with Waste Industries for operation. While comprehensive national data on operational management is not explicitly detailed in the provided sources, it’s estimated that a significant portion of municipally owned landfills—potentially around 20-30%—may involve private companies in their operation, based on trends toward public-private partnerships and privatization.waste360.comwaste360.combigrentz.com

These figures are drawn from available data up to 2018 and reflect the broader shift toward private sector involvement in landfill management, though exact operational breakdowns may vary by region and require further localized data for precision.

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In regards to Maramec Springs, I would question if there is an entry fee for all entry to the park? Website only mentions fee for cars. If there is a fee for all entry, I would argue that it’s not a public park; it’s equivalent to Disneyland in just being a private business.

There are a few parks in the San Diego area, such as the state park beaches, that charge an access fee for cars, but it is free to walk in, so the majority of people park outside and then walk in for free. I would still consider this a public park (for the well-being of the public).

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It is free to walk in.

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My (still incomplete) list so far is:
GOVT:
-Police/Civil defense force (FullTime, PartTime, or Volunteer paid via tax money in my model, and/or 6 mo conscription)
-Roads/bridges/storm water ???
-Land Stewardship (ie owning land for different purposes: landfill, wilderness preserves, public parks

PERSONAL
-Electricity (solar/battery/wind)
-Septic/other waste methods (all methods of dispersing human waste into the property as nature does)
-Grey water dispersal (probably same sort of septic system)
-Fresh water (rain water collection, or river stream purification)

CHARITY/BUSINESS
-Hospital/Ambulance (free market and strict non-monopoly laws so that different forms of medicine have a chance) (also run as zero-profit businesses, as in the CEO of business makes nothing, but the workers are FT, PT, or V)
-Trash service
-Management of some public parks
-Schools (free market and strict non-monopoly laws so that different forms of schooling have a chance)

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Your point about waste management is interesting because where I lived at in Florida everything was completely private except for the fact that the county gave a monopoly to WCA over the entire county except for a few cities that had contracts with other companies. Even the landfills there were private.

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Yeah when you really look hard at a lot of this stuff, it all looks like public-private partnerships you see everywhere.

I’m thinking that the libertarian govt of the future should standardize this somehow so that the public always understands what’s going on. Something like: the govt is always the steward of the land and manages the overall direction of the land use by public vote on different proposals. But the govt never handles money. All money goes thru the private companies.

Govt-created monopolies are the big fear here, but as long as the govt has free land in reserve, it can always approve a competitor to any potential monopoly…

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Yes almost everything can be done by PPP through DAO’s. Like my previous article had said and I have told you membership into various organizations that will sustain communities all around the world!

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I have a million questions:

What is your definition of DAO? The definition I find online is an amorphous blob that could mean anything. Most crypto snobs seem to use the term “DAO” as a mystical fairy creature that will swoop in and solve all problems. The same people probably believe that an Uber-cop will show up and risk their life protecting them for $50, and that the same Uber-cops will somehow takedown organized crime rings.

If most govt things in America are public-private partnerships, then how good can you really judge this in generality? Our PPP aerospace companies are hoarding technology given to them by govt employees. Our PPP waste management has a history of being run by mafia thugs. Elon’s DOGE has found mass embezzlement of money, always done through the interface of govt with private ngo’s.

The answer of “It’s going to be different this time because of Blockchain” will probably be the answer the crypto snobs give me. And smart people will have to ask "Exactly why? and “Exactly how?”

Not saying you are a crypto snob, Martin. I’m sure you recognize that this sub-group does exist and is annoyingly single-minded.

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I didn’t mean to stir you up into a frenzy but here are a few ideas of mine that I hope we can come to an understanding on.

1 DAO my vision of a DAO is purpose driven non profit type cooperative where people are members and come together for a specific purpose. I myself am a member of a rural electric cooperative, even those here in the US if in cities may not know of their existence or how they operate but their power rates are much cheaper than for profit power companies I know because I have purchased power under both types in the same area. There can be utility co-ops for water and power, there could be ones for local roads too I imagine. You can use them for a lot of things and their charters can be written in a way that prohibits excessive profits like the electric co-ops have and distribute the money back to you in capital credits that goes toward lowering your power bill usually once a year after you have been a member after a set time based on the charter.

2 Elon Musk and his DOGE do show a ton of grift but what I see as PPP is different from what it is today. Look at Canada’s air traffic control system for instance it is privately owned and operated but with permission from the Canadian govt. They could at anytime pull back their consent and from what I understand there isn’t necessarily a monopolistic power in this just that the airlines and aviation users have consolidated with one particular company and if it is a natural monopoly I have no objections to and that is what I see a PPP being. One that has the govt permission to operate oversight as needed from the govt and the people at large including members and or shareholders.

And no I am not a crypto snob but you have to use some of the terms because you have to be analogous to your audience!

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I believe we are “nudged” to do certain things in life. Me and you happen to be here at this time to develop these ideas. And it is great that we slightly disagree or there would be nothing to talk about. This could be the start of a break-thru community that actually has debates about the future of governance. But I’m pretty sure it won’t be the LL inner circle to have those debates, they are too busy compromising their values in the name of “friendship” and belonging. Please never put me in the category of “going along to get along.” In a post 2020 world, I will never verbally agree to anything I don’t believe in. And anyone who does, in my opinion, is scum and deserves to swept aside and disregarded.

Technically, I think we are mostly in agreement about a DAO PPP. My bringing up criticism is not against the whole idea of a DAO PPP, but instead to nit-pick the little things and fix them so that, later on, some low-morality billionaire cannot easily barbarize the system for himself and against the collective. As of right now, this system is still ripe for such abuse.

Also the name DAO PPP (decentralized autonomous organization public-private partnership) is just functionally a bad name and not correct in terms of what we are trying to describe.

  1. It’s not exactly decentralized. (There is a central authority who makes decisions. Literally govt tech workers are actively working to get things done. Whomever sets up the vote also has power. Not everything can be voted on, some things are just too small.)

  2. It’s not really autonomous. (It is still powered by human beings)

  3. It’s not really a partnership, (Is parenthood a partnership with the child? Kinda, sorta but it’s not really the best term. The word implies equality of power)

Collective governance and delegation of power? Collective delegation of resources? Collective E-governance thru delegation of resources? Collective E-governance thru distribution of power and resources?

If you haven’t seen it, watch the John Adams miniseries from 2008.

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Education has molded us into thinking certain functions can only be done by the govt but in specific examples like the ones we have discussed we have proven them false. We need to find a way to “lock” a few principles in.

1 Public Utilities and hospitals among other items we can identify as essential (not COVID essential) need to operate on a non profit basis and the type where excessive revenue is returned to the members or some other documented group of people that have benefited from such services.

2 While I am against public utility commissions because of the grift they get from utility companies there needs to be some mechanism and or independent oversight to make sure there entities are not cooking their books and profiteering or channeling the money away like what US DOGE has found and actually have real teeth into such finds so those that do commit such aggressions are held accountable.

3 Find the correct verbiage for what we are trying to establish instead of using such phrases and acronyms that aren’t necessarily appropriate in this context for starters.

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  1. Yeah I completely agree. Though, this is a tough project by itself. I would argue there has to be 1 entrepreneur at the top of these zero-profit businesses (not a committee) but we have to convince these entrepreneurs to take on these CEO positions and to do it for the collective good and not for their personal wealth. Or maybe they are now easily found in large numbers due to the events of the last five years, I’m not quite sure…

What process should be best? Should the entrepreneur start their own business (park for this example) and then create a promo video and then get a collective governance E-vote of all citizens to be granted authority to use specifically requested public park land to build and operate his park?

  1. Agreed. Hopefully the current grift is remedied soon.

  2. Yeah. First-time innovators get to make up their own language. I’ve gotten to do a tiny bit of this in the nutrition world. It can be quite fun.

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