Law Enforcement Innovation

General
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This is in answer to the system of law enforcement “uberization” that Vit has theorized about.

Years back I worked on an ambulance and one day we were called to a meth addict that had some sort of mental breakdown. He had broken the window of his hotel room and had major cuts to his hands and forearms and went around touching and spreading blood to everything in his room and the neighbor room and on the outside walls and windows. It looked like 5 people had been murdered there. The man was found naked on the sidewalk outside the room covered in blood from head to toe. He was shouting insults at everyone and swinging punches at anyone who got close. We had to restrain him, carry him to the ambulance, etc. Most of our guys got punched and found blood and bits of glass on themselves afterwards and had to disinfect their entire uniform and selves afterwards.

Technically we were medical, but it could have been law enforcement that had to deal with him. I highlight this story to say that no amount of money could have been offered to me to deal with this guy. If someone offered me $10,000 to take this 1 hour run, my answer would be “no.” He could have permanently damaged my face if he had connected with a glass covered hand or he could have transmitted a life-threatening disease to me thru his blood.

So I do not personally believe that we can have law enforcement officers that are at home and then respond from there. They will decline to respond to a call for help if they don’t feel like it. You have to mentally get in the zone for your shift as a first responder, even if the shift is 24 or 72 hours. You stay mentally on edge the whole time, and then dump all that stored up adrenaline the second you get off shift.

Also there is response times. The EMS service I worked for used to respond from their homes and their response times to incidents were like 20-30 minutes versus 4-5 minutes for a normal EMS service that is stationed next to the ambulance.

But I think Vit is definitely right in thinking that law enforcement desperately needs an innovative new method. The barbaric ways Croatian police are allowed to beat people prove this quite well.

I don’t think the answer is in offering money though, because there will be major risks involved. I think the answer is more along the lines of a program that stirs up community spirit.

Imho there must be a well-trained, on-duty presence of law officers dressed and ready for action at all hours of the day.

Now it is debatable: how many must be on-duty at a time, if they are paid or volunteer, to what standard their training is done, will they operate in pairs or solo? Will we use the Mayan method of demanding a certain number of days of volunteer work per citizen per year? Will we have a whole police staff where everyone is part-time, and they have one or two mandatory paid shifts per week? Can we use voice AI to offer real-time guidance on the law to the officers if they have questions? Should citizens be able to review and critique body-camera footage of incidents?

I have not finished formulating my thoughts on this, but I will post here when I do.

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While I agree there needs to be a new model for emergency services I think we need to go to a subscription based one, ones that pay for the service get it, those that dont pay get limited services or nothing. This ties into my idea of DAO’s I am also thinking about cooperatives as well to fund and operate what we think of as “government services” like roads, schools, etc. To get back to your example Murf I think a hybrid professional-volunteer model is best and they would be paid from these subscription fees.

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tranq darts, net guns

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I think nonlethal force will be the future of law enforcement everywhere and Liberland needs to lead the way in this too.

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Net guns for sure, no doubt.

Martin, I agree in theory subscription model could potentially be good. But my mind is immediately pulled to the example of a person calling LL dispatch saying they are getting attacked by a knife wielding crazy guy, but the caller is not a subscriber to the police service. Law enforcement cannot not respond, or at least there will be major social consequences if they do not respond and neutralize the knife threat.

But perhaps it’s not a question of responding or not, the cops will always respond, but if the help requester is not a subscriber, they get a large bill for services rendered. But if they are a subscriber, there is no bill, which in effect makes their subscriber fee basically more like an insurance fee.

So are you thinking the police are definitely a govt institution and not one or more private businesses? I’m on the side of the police being govt and not private, but I’m certainly open to hearing new ideas about privatized law enforcement.

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I think there may be a misunderstanding in our thoughts let me give me you a different example and see if we are on the same track. Lets say there is a house fire the person that owns the house is not a member but the next door neighbor is the fire service responds but only to save that neighbors house that is insurance and I will concede. However assault is not the same thing with the NAP being violated the police have a duty to respond this goes into the hybrid model mentioned earlier with professional and volunteer I think what may happen under your scenario is this. Under the dao groups that would exist in Liberland people would be members of at least 1 I think and would have some type of private security component I would imagine they would respond first having some type of vested interest and then call in the police if necessary. The power of citizens arrest needs to be codified or at a minimum private security as they will truly be the first responders versus the police. What do you think Murf?

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I’m not completely understanding. In your version of the knife scenario, the help requester makes a phone call for help, and it goes to a dispatcher. Is that dispatcher public or private? And will the dispatcher first send privatized security to assist? And then govt police are asked to assist by the private security if necessary?

In my original post I was trying to make a point about what a low-commitment law enforcement officer might choose to do versus a high-commitment one. I think I screwed it up because I used a medical example. But I would like to point out the contrast in response to active shooter situations: examples 1 and 2 are the Parkland High School 1st officer on scene response and the Uvalde Elementary School 1st few officers on scene response. And the contrast of those with 3 and 4 Christian Craighead’s response to shooters in Kenya and Kyle Morgan’s response to shooters in Mali.

I did a few years in a military CQB anti-terrorist team and central to the training was instilling a warrior ethos. We were willing to die a warrior’s death if necessary to protect others. I strongly believe Liberland needs some sort of trained warriors in a position to help its citizens and they have to have a warrior ethos or they will turn into cowards once their own lives are threatened. I’ve never seen a private company create warriors with a strong ethos, but of course I am open to hearing about new ideas to achieve it.

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Ok maybe I am not being clear but I will try again. The dispatch is private funded through I would say a mix from insurance companies and various other organizations like daos. Yes first it would those closest to the incident. As the saying goes when seconds count police are minutes away. I see private security like the old minuteman of the revolutionary war ready at a moments notice ready to protect their community.

That’s the biggest issue no camaraderie, no sense of community, trust and respect of fellow man in law enforcement anywhere outside of small communities this is because we have lost touch of who our neighbors are taking care of each other for the common good.

I only have experience in private security no law enforcement or military but the warrior ethos I think is part of the problem. I say this because again loss of sense of community the US military up until Vietnam war had units based on community as in those that served in a particular unit were all from the same area be it city, county or a state region they were friends, neighbors, classmates, coworkers, etc before they joined the war so there is already an inherent sense of duty not just to country but to each other, that is what is missing everywhere in the world I think and I hope Liberland can restore that sense of community.

If we have a sense of duty to take care of our neighbor again and not as enemies a lot of these problems that go to law enforcement can be resolved by the local community that the key to all of this I think.

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Yes, you bring up some excellent points. I would love to see a system like the minutemen of neighbors helping neighbors. Liberland does already appear to have a very neighborly community and that’s one of the things drawing us to it.

I will mention some of the things standing in the way of that minutemen ideal:

  1. Modern society is low emotion society. I know everyone will have a different opinion of why we have become this way, but I would like to point out technology in the sub-group that is split into technology users and non-users, preschool kids. My nephews don’t ever touch technology and they are extremely vibrant emotionally. When I visit their preschool and I ask my sister about a kid that looks zombified and still speaks like a baby even though they are 5 years-old, the answer is always, “I’ve seen that kid get an iPad when the parents need a break.” And a different subgroup, the Amish, have the lowest rates of technology use among US adults and I would arguably say they are one of our most charitable groups of people, considering they personally have very little materially, and much of what they charitably give is their personal time.

  2. Volunteers are often regarded as ineffective in a professional sense. I’ve worked with reserve military components that were supposed to be equal to my active unit and they were not even close. I’ve worked with volunteer firefighters and they will not perform critical tasks just because they don’t feel like it.

I completely agree with you about the lack of respect for their common man in some of the police (America). I worked alongside police for many years and I encountered some that were thoughtful and kind and some that were egotistical and capable of cruelness. I have heard a reform idea and it is to split the police into two groups, 1st would be more like a social worker/psychologist/community liaison and the 2nd would be the standard cop capable of extreme violence in order to protect the public. Maybe a team of two with one of each type would work the best. Liberland might have to be quite experimental here.

Interesting point about the locale makeup of military units, I did not know that. I wonder if that changed when they decided not to move combat replacements straight into war zones and they moved towards rotating out the whole unit if they took too many losses.

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You are correct about our society being low emotional but I think that is the wrong phrase low empathy I would suggest be more suitable. People here in the US vote emotionally not rationally.

I have been waiting for someone to bring up the amish community. I live a few miles away from one and I think of them as no tech Liberlanders because of the way they live they dont get medicare, medicaid, social security and even exempt from the draft and compulsory education. But they still have to pay taxes though just like the rest of us americans.

Unfortunately you are correct about volunteer firefighters in that they are lazy and I live in a fire district and is all volunteer except the fire chief who is the county coroner too.

I think a team of 2 where one is a traditional cop and the other a social service worker would be ideal especially with the mental health issues we face in the world today but if there is a sense of community and compassion we may not have such dire issues in the future. I see technology as a double edge sword we are more connected in a way like this forum is worldwide but on the flip side we are losing the personal face to face interactions that humans need to socialize.

I wonder if liberland can have an off grid community where the tech isnt necessarily needed to be in the liberland community. These are discussions that need to be had because what if am emp event occurs and all of our tech is rendered useless with liberland so connected to technology can it survive such a scenario.

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