Illegally Obtained Evidence (piece-by-piece-Constitution)

(This is my ongoing series presenting pieces that I am formulating into my own constitution for any future country [including LL]. The wording is not set and is open to changes/additions/subtractions. Posting about it is just to stimulate debate, as should any good creator of a constitution.)

"Illegally Obtained Evidence

Any evidence obtained illegally is still useable as evidence. However the persons who used illegal means of obtaining the evidence shall also be charged with the whatever illegal activity they did to obtain the evidence."

This is kind of a two-parter that will go along with a separate post about how audio/videotaping will use the above premise. I tried to use AI to estimate how many countries allow for admission of evidence that was illegally obtained, and it didn’t want to give me any sort of numbers. But there are definitely countries that lean more towards NOT admitting illegally obtained evidence (USA, Scotland) and those that will consider each piece of evidence uniquely (Canada, Australia, New Zealand).

For those countries (or smaller jurisdictions) that do frequently consider evidence that was obtained illegally, AI pretty much always included a version of the following:

“… permit use of unlawfully obtained evidence where excluding it would bring the administration of justice into disrepute or where the violation is less serious compared to the societal interest in prosecution.”

Or “courts may admit illegally obtained evidence if the desirability of admitting it outweighs the undesirability of how it was obtained, particularly in serious cases.”

Or “judges assess whether admitting such evidence would compromise the overall fairness of the trial or violate fundamental rights”

So the difference in what I am proposing, to nearly every other country, is that illegally obtained evidence is ALWAYS useable in court, if it is legitimate, of course. And the person who used illegal means to get it is ALWAYS tried and punished for their illegal acts if they can be caught. If anyone can think of any situations where this would not work, please let us know.

Imho, these types of laws (throwing out illegally obtained evidence, etc) are put on the books by crooked politicians who are afraid of someone videotaping their private conversations. EVERY HUMAN ON EARTH SHOULD BE ACTING AS IF THEY ARE BEING RECORDED AT ALL TIMES. This is the only way we will progress from where we are currently at with criminals running rampant, and politicians not caring at all about the will of the people.

As we will see when I post about illegal audio/videotaping, I will have some sort of clause there that the penalty for illegal taping shall always be less than that for commiting any form of violence. Usually when I see someone commenting about inequality in the justice system it is often about how serious crime X got less of a penalty than petty crime Z, so I figured it might be a good way to determine penalties is to describe (in constitution) how one should be less or more than the other. The entire spectrum of crimes could be mapped out this way. Still a work in progress tho.

1 Like

Interesting you make the “if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear” into a very unique legal situation that phrase of course comes from Joseph Goebbels who was Hitler’s propaganda minister. I would be tread lightly into this arena because of a person’s right to privacy, however if any criminal act is done in any sort of public area whether public property, a business, or other types of places of that sort then one has no expectation of privacy. I would like to also say that the use of drones in public surveillance can be a double edged sword as well good for crime detection but horrible for privacy in one’s backyard. I can see this to be a very spirited debate!

“…the person who used illegal means to get it is ALWAYS tried and punished for their illegal acts…”

So the Edward Snowdens, Kevin OKeifs and other whistle blowers would get tried, punished and thrown in the clanger?

1 Like

Gregg you bring up good points. I will clarify.

  1. Snowden never should have been legally pursued in the first place because you can’t sign a govt secrecy agreement for illegal activity. I am also working on a whistleblower protection part of my constitution.

  2. I couldn’t find a Kevin OKeifs. But if you meant James O’Keefe, and his method of videotaping his subjects without their knowledge and them admitting to incredibly corrupt activity, that would be perfectly legal under my portion on audio/videotaping.
    “Hidden cameras and/or audio microphones are always legal to use anywhere that the person operating the camera is themselves legally able to be, outside of video in bedrooms, bathrooms or changing rooms. If recording a conversation, no consent from any party is required. Even if cameras or microphones are used illegally, any crimes depicted from the video or audio are still useable as evidence. A person who illegally operates a camera or microphone will be charged for doing it illegally, unless their recordings reveal a crime larger than illegal taping.”

  3. The punishments will be quite small for something such as illegal taping. The US Federal Govt’s “throwing the book” at people such as Snowden and others is exactly why I want to try writing punishment ranges into my constitution. How about Joshua Schulte, whistleblower against the CIA who got 33 years in prison for it and 6 additional years for child porn that mysteriously was found on his computer after becoming whistleblower against one of the few agencies with the power to insert child porn on computers remotely?

Martin, I will have to disagree with you about that Goebbels quote, because that was a statement made in bad faith to intimidate the public into surrender. My basic premise is that politicians and wealthy people have weaponized our desire for privacy against us to pass laws that are only beneficial for them to hide their crimes. I would argue we already live in a world where we could be being videotaped at any moment, and I believe certain peoples behavior is much better as a result of this, especially from “audit” style videos. Cops seem a lot more respectful in the last few years, in my subjective opinion. And I would like to look at the stats to see if I might find some correlations to public videotaping affecting crime. I saw a video about Staten Island and it said they lowered crime in an area just by getting more powerful street lights.

You do bring up a good point with the drones and with tracking/tracing technology in general like the Flock Safety cameras. I am wondering if the equality of armament clause will help in this area… Like the police may only pursue that type of technology if the citizens do not have the license to track/trace them around in their squad cars. I don’t know, what do you think?

Murf your points are spot on about Snowden and O’Keefe I think the approach of a contract is void if you are required to conceal illegal activity would encourage more whistleblowers and a “slap on the wrist” penalty otherwise would encourage paparazzi type people to scrutinize the rich and famous and those in power.

1 Like

Yeah, I’m guessing the Snowden issue is so thorny because we don’t have laws specifically saying that a contract is void if it requires you to conceal illegal activity, but it is certainly implied by many other laws. I believe there is some form of background battles being played out within the US govt, with one side being the established pro-compartmented secrecy model, and the other side very opposed to how secrecy has been handled in the US and wanting to dismantle the secrecy apparatus here.

What are you saying about the paparazzi?

Well look at how celebrities are followed everywhere by paparazzi what you would essentially be doing is having investigative reporters follow these rich and powerful that aren’t followed like the celebrities currently are because of the power of their lawyers and or laws that protect them from harassment. Just think if the CEO of Blackrock or any of those other types of firms the Rothschilds, etc were followed around like the Kardashians are everywhere they went. They aren’t now because people are intimidated is my logic right now.

I have seen a little bit of this, like the CEO of Pfizer had reporters running after him at one of these events a year or two ago. But in general I feel like celebrities actually go into public spaces because they feel loved by the public. People like the Blackrock guy or the Pfizer guy are probably never seen in public at all. If they go to a restaurant, they probably have someone reserve a backroom for them and will go in thru a back entrance. Even crooked news guys like Anderson Cooper only leave the house with giant security teams. Sounds like a “fun” life.

Well you made reference that the CIA can plant evidence anywhere they please what if a O’Keefe type person plants a bug in one of those restaurants or hacks into their surveillance system or pays off someone for “access” I mean that sorta how governor Newsom got caught in those Cali restaurants during the peak of COVID since he was wining and dining without masks while making everyone else suffer his edicts.

I would love to see it. And it does seem like we are all headed in that direction regardless. Those scamdemic stories still piss me off like it happened yesterday.